The Coq mailing list

[Sam Kuper <sampablokuper AT posteo.net>]

On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 04:10:02PM +0200, Luís Cruz-Filipe wrote:
> Will we be discussing how to deal with people whose surname is Kok
> (quite popular in some European countries) twenty years from now?

There is no shortage of non-English words or names that sound rude in
English:

https://web.archive.org/web/20181205083508/https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/24/words-that-sound-rude/

https://thelanguagenerds.com/24-non-english-words-that-sound-dirty-but-are-innocent/

https://culturacolectiva.com/history/innocent-foreign-words-sound-dirty-in-english-and-other-languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuku_Station 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsutar%C5%8D_Fuku 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momofuku_%28restaurants%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seifuku 

Even many innocent *English* words can make Anglophones smirk.  More on
this below, but try saying "homophone" or "circumscribe" to a group of
native English-speaking teenagers, as many schoolteachers must.


On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 04:10:02PM +0200, Luís Cruz-Filipe wrote:
> Point 4 on the pro list ["We should do better than giggling at silly
> words (we do not, but we should)"] matches how I see it: the problem
> is not the name "Coq", it's the inappropriate jokes that people make
> based on it.  It saddens me that the only way we can find to address
> this problem is by proposing a name change. While I understand the
> issues reported by many people on this list, I still find this the
> wrong approach.

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 02:52:06PM -0700, Vadim Zaliva wrote:
> I personally feel that as educators, we need to try to elevate the
> level of the public discourse so jokes around "Coq" will be less
> likely to appear.  Many topics and terms that caused giggles and
> offensive jokes a few decades ago now could be openly discussed in
> modern society. That's why my initial reaction was against the name
> change. Of course, we could not change every person out there, but for
> example, we can start with students and fellow researchers.

Exactly.  And with anyone else who can't control themselves sufficiently
to put aside puerile humour in cases where such humour is offensive.

Moreover, a sufficiently smutty mind can attach innuendo to pretty much
*any* word.  A famous Monty Python sketch demonstrates a puerile person
attaching innuendo to ostensibly innocent words like "follow", "sell",
"games", "sport", "Purley", and "go".[1]

Google maintains a popular programming language called Go.  In some
contexts, that means "have sex" (see above).  Should Google change the
language's name?  Probably not.

To suggest that the *target* - Go or Coq, or any person who works with
those - should expect puerile behaviour unless they make a change, seems
akin to suggesting (as, unfortunately, some people do) that people who
wear small clothes should expect to receive puerility (or worse) unless
they cover up.  In extremis, the latter leads to burqas and niqabs.[2]

But of course, burqas and niqabs do not stop sexism (arguably, the
opposite), and renaming Coq will probably not stop sexism either.

The important thing is to help people understand that it is the
perpetrator of puerility who is responsible for that puerility, and that
where puerility is abusive such people should be censured accordingly.

Does this mean Huet deserves some censure for his puerility?  Probably.

Does it mean Coq's name should be changed?  Probably not.

I had been about to say that the "CoPA" or "Copa" suggestion from Samuel
Lasser seems reasonable.  But then I realised that I've no idea whether,
especially since "copa" means "cup" (or even "barmaid" or "dancing
girl") in some languages, people might attach a different innuendo to
it, or even assume that the Coq developers were switching one innuendo
for another.  It seems possible that they would.

I agree that harassment and offensiveness should be minimised, but
regarding Coq I can't currently think of a better solution than the one
I gave earlier:

On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 03:25:49PM +0100, Sam Kuper wrote:
> I do believe that if the name or logo are retained, it would be wise
> to add a paragraph explaining them - perhaps also with a
> recommendation to non-Francophones to pronounce the name as "coke" -
> here: https://coq.inria.fr/about-coq .


[1]: https://genius.com/Monty-python-nudge-nudge-annotated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_Nudge


[2]: Anyone should be welcome to wear a burqa or niqab *if they wish*.
But not forced to.  Nor be told that wearing one stops sexism.

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